Shownotes

Links

Complex Responsive Processes of Relating (CRPR) – Ralph Stacey
Dialogic Organisation Development – Gervase Bushe and Robert Marshak

Transcript

Welcome to our podcast, Leading in Conversation. Hi Nelis, this feels a little bit awkward. How do you start a podcast? 

Especially if it’s the first one? So yeah, I’m glad we’re doing this. This is exciting and scary and I am really looking forward to connecting with people and uh even if it’s just talking to you. 

Yes. So I guess we should start out by introducing ourselves and the concept of conversational leadership and then maybe later episodes we can dig into that in more detail later. 

Let’s do that then. So, why don’t you kick us off? 

Introductions

Kate

Okay, so I’m Kate, and I’m from the UK. Although I spent most of my early adulthood in Papua New Guinea. Alongside raising children, I was involved in strategic planning, facilitation, things like that. And I got to see leadership and change processes from the inside, from the back room perspective. And to be honest I became disillusioned with traditional models of leadership, uh, heroic leadership, uh, control and command style leadership, and also with organisational change management. And also as a parent raising children I became curious about how change happens, both on a personal level and organizationally. 

In 2014 I began Masters studies and I encountered the work of Ralph Stacey and his theory of complex responsive processes of relating – CRPR. That led on to discovering Dialogic Organisation Development, developed by Gervase Bushe and Bob Marshak, which really started making a lot of sense to me. I really loved what they were describing, as a totally new way of looking at organisations, at change, through the use of conversations and as a, as a writer as a communications person I’ve always got excited at the power of words and language to connect people and to bring change really, so all of this started ringing bells and um inspiring me. And then midway through my Masters studies in 2016 we relocated to the UK and at that point our new Executive Director – who you were already working with, Nelis – asked me to join his team, to build an internal communications function in our organisation,  pretty much making it up from scratch really. His leadership style was very conversational and we found that our interest in conversational leadership connected there and he gave me an incredible amount of freedom, permission to experiment in our organisation with global staff conversations, using conversational processes and it just seemed to work. If you remember Nelis you were one of my first guinea pigs,  which you probably weren’t aware of at the time, but it’s been fun exploring over the last uh – how many years is it now – 6-7 years. So, how about you? Why don’t you introduce yourself? 

Nelis

I’m from the Netherlands and fairly early on in my career I moved to Africa to work with our organisation there. Was there actually for 20 years in a variety of uh leadership roles. One of my first experiences with significant global leadership processes was in 2010. When I was asked to be part of a global task force to look at significant change, overhaul of organisational structures in our organisation. That change was basically a significant failure. Like many change processes actually, 

75% of change processes fail, which is, is fairly disappointing. 

And scary to be aware of, so that’s why we need to look at different models. Anyway, this was one of those and it’s become a major stumbling block in the organisation for further change, actually, and we’re still overcoming that. But being part of that process as that task force, I realised that while we had good ideas, I think, we did not have a process to implement it. We were focusing on the ideas from a top-down level and the organisation just couldn’t embrace it, wasn’t part of it, didn’t feel co-ownership with it, and as a result started to resist it. And that is what really got me interested in looking at, are there different ways of doing this? 

And it’s really interesting because I think now, we are, as you said, the ideas were good, and we’re still working our way through some of the same issues now, but it was the process, as you said. And I remember being on the receiving end in Papua New Guinea and I think we had like a 40 page document that just suddenly appeared announcing all these changes and it was kind of like “What?!”, and this was the first we’d heard of it. So as you say, process is really important, and involving staff in change, even in the co-creation of change, rather than producing it from above is really critical.

Anyway, in 2016 I was asked to join our incoming Executive Director as part of his leadership team and was quite inspired by his approach where he took basically a look back at the organisational history and uh explored our journey up to that point and then um took that for conversation into the whole organisation, saying, do we recognize this? What does this tell us right now? Where are we? Where should we go at this crossroads in our organisational history? And that became quite powerful. And again was an inspiration to me as I started exploring the idea of a different kind of process. And soon after that I started working with Kate. I actually was one of her, not just guinea pigs, but also early adopters, reviewing with her, her MA work, looking at what can I learn from that? But also giving input. And so we started that conversation both at a theoretical level and at a very practical level in our organisation of what does this concretely look like? We started to experiment basically in the organisation ourselves as to what works and what doesn’t. 

Why are we starting this podcast?

And one of the reasons that we started this podcast is because other people have heard about those experiments in SIL with conversational leadership, and have been interested and said, “Can we talk to you about this? Can we learn more about what you’re doing?” And we’ve found over the last year that we are meeting up with quite a lot of people from other organisations, similar nonprofit organisations particularly and having some great conversations, exploring that with people. But we thought, well, maybe we should start putting some of this down  in some form, and actually a podcast seemed more appropriate to conversations than writing a book or something like that. So, yeah, Nelis, anything to say about this podcast, why we’re doing it? 

I think we’re still going to write that book at some point, but at this point a podcast is, I think as you said, the best way forward and we can do that fairly quickly. So, we’re doing this because we feel that we want to share experiences, the journey, with others, from an inside perspective. So one of the things that…, I mean, almost all of the books are basically written for people doing organisational development who come in as consultants from the outside. And the experience is always that of the outsider. Now, that’s all great. But what do you do as a leader, when you are responsible in the end for that change? And people look at you to make decisions, not start conversations. What does that look like? How do you change the expectations? How do you live with the expectations? How do you give leadership and still find a different way to do that, a conversational way to do that. So that’s what we want to explore with each other and with maybe other experts and interview people and find ways to make this very practical.

And you must check out our blog for links to some of our favourite writers and practitioners on the topic of conversational leadership because there’s some great stuff out there. Dialogic organisational development as well as conversational leadership. People like David Gurteen, and the Bushe and Marshak Institute are some of my favourites. We probably should start out with a disclaimer. We’re not experts, we’re practitioners, we don’t have it all figured out and we’re still learning and we want to learn in conversation with others and continue the journey with others, but we’ll be pointing you to some of the experts and writers along the way. 

Who, by the way, are also on a journey. The whole idea is that this is a new field where everybody is still learning. And actually the world is changing so fast that we can’t just settle and say now we’ve got it. And so, this ongoing exploration is going to be important. 

What is conversational leadership?

So that is a great segue, Nelis, into our main topic for the day, really, which iswhat is conversational leadership? And we thought we’d give a brief introduction today and then follow up in later episodes. So what is conversational leadership, Nelis?

Well let me first say something about what it is not. What I often see happen is people say, oh that’s great, that’s a wonderful tool to use. And yes it is, but when we’re talking about conversational leadership we’re thinking about it as much more than just a tool. It is a way of looking at all of leadership and actually what an organisation is. And that is my second point, it’s a totally new way of looking at what an organisation actually is, and I think that’s important too, to understand.

And I’d add to that, it’s a new way of relating to staff. It’s about respecting and involving staff in a whole new way, in decision-making and change, for me I think that’s really critical. And you mentioned earlier a little bit that this is still an emerging field, very much so. I think it started developing in the early 2000’s, sort of in contrast to the historic approach to leadership and change which was very much heroic, top-down, managerial, management-led and it’s probably developed as a response to the sort of sea change in culture too. People are more connected than ever before through the internet. Life has become more complex and change is more constant. If you read some of the early change management tomes, textbooks, classic texts, such as Lewin, they refer to change as a sort of one-off event, where you need to unfreeze, make the change happen and then freeze again and then life can go on as…  and now that just seems so strange because change is constant. You’re changing your change as you go, even, I think everyone would probably resonate with that today, especially in our current pandemic context. 

Yes, I think of Kotter who basically had the change figured out and then you create five steps to change (Eight!) and then you’re done and so we’re talking about something quite different. It is change that is constant. It is change that is done together where the leader has a very different role, a convener, a shepherd, rather than the one who knows everything. 

Key Principles of conversational leadership

Why don’t we run through some of the key principles of conversational leadership right now, that we will be digging into in later episodes? Nelis, why don’t you kick us off with this new way of looking at organisations? 

1. An organisation is a web of ongoing conversations

One of the first things we’ve already mentioned shortly is that an organisation is a web of ongoing conversations. So that defines organisations quite differently. That’s the first principle. An organisation is a web of ongoing conversations. That means that it’s not a neat set of boxes on an org chart, which is what we often think of, as we define an organisation. It’s actually not the legal incorporation that defines the organisation because organisations are in reality, much more fluid than that. It is the identity people give to this somewhat abstract concept together. And it is in conversations – where people share information, where they identify together, what they are about, where they learn to diagnose problems, where they look together at making commitments – that an organisation is actually defined. Together we give it meaning and that has profound implications, of course, so when you think of what that means, that if an organisation truly is that web of conversations, then leadership is about engaging with and participating in all of those interactions that happen naturally, anyway. And conversational leadership is about doing that, engaging every staff member in a way to do that shaping of the organisation together, rather than assume that it’s sort of done outside of everybody. 

2. Everyone in the organisation has wisdom that is needed

A second key principle is that everyone in the organisation has wisdom, and their wisdom is needed. And that’s very much in contrast to that sort of traditional lone omniscient leader. We want to engage everybody in change and access their insights, their experience. Now, sure, the position and the connections that leaders have does give them access to privileged information and broader perspectives, but they don’t have access to all the information and understanding needed and they’re often out of touch with the experience of staff on the ground. I think we as leaders need to be really aware of that. We are very much out of touch with the experience of staff on the ground. They’re responsible for day-to-day operations. They have deep insights into what really happens, as well as the ability to influence people and projects and bring change much, much more quickly. And we need to bring those two perspectives together. I think that’s really valuable, really important, the sort of big picture perspective, but then the on-the-ground perspective, we need to get those insights and that experience and the wisdom that flows from it. The philosophy behind conversational leadership, which we will look into later, is that meaning is socially constructed, we build it together and everyone has wisdom to contribute to that.

That goes back to our earlier point about the organisation being defined by all of us together. So it’s a social construct. You cannot work as if it is defined top down. And I think that is a key part of the whole idea behind conversational leadership. And when I talk about it with people, people recognize that, they are immediately aware, they are like “Yeah, when we did that change process or when these leaders said that, they had no idea of what it’s really like”. And you get those kinds of responses all the time. And so I think it touches a reality many of us recognize.

Yes, definitely. So is there even a place for a leader these days? 

3. Leaders have an important but different role to play

Absolutely. That is actually the third principle that we want to explore. That leaders have a very important role to play but it’s quite different.So the leader doesn’t stand outside the organisation, is not one who dictates action but is one that is engaged in that web of conversations and is able to help shape that conversation without being able to control it, and that is key. So what does shaping versus controlling mean? So one aspect of that is that the right questions are asked so that conversations are actually, have a direction that they’re so focused, that they’re productive and it doesn’t become just chatter, which can easily happen if you are not careful.

Definitely. I think that’s one of the things that people say about conversational leadership. I think we’re going to get on to that later. It’s just, how is this different from what we do anyway? We talk, how is this different? But actually the framing is really important. 

Yes, so it’s very purposeful and that’s where leadership, without giving all the answers, asks the right questions and that, of course, that also means that you’ve got to involve the right people. So leaders need to be the ones to ensure that all of the different key perspectives are brought into the conversation. Because if you don’t, you get a very one-sided view of the situation and actually half of the group still feels excluded and they will create their own social reality, which is then in opposition to leadership, which is not helpful at all. And again, we see that happen all the time. 

One of the reasons we need diversity is that’s where novelty and new ideas come from. If you’re stuck with the same group of people talking about something all the time, and there’s no new input, new insights, you’re pretty much going to get stuck going around in circles. So bringing in new people, bringing in diverse perspectives and experiences is actually what you need to create that novelty that will lead to new solutions, new answers.

But before we go there: conversations need some kind of closure in the sense that you want to come to conclusions that lead to action, that form the basis for further conversation. So there’s a sense of clarifying what has come out of the conversation and together determine what the next steps will be. And again that is a key leadership role. So back to diversity.

4. Diversity is needed

As I said, you know, a diversity of experience and wisdom is needed to find solutions and direction. And if you’ve got the same group of leaders talking about the same problem over and over and over, you’re not really going to get anything new. If you have similar backgrounds, similar life experiences, exposure to the same set of influences and information, you’re going to find that you’re limited in ideas and options. So it’s always great to gather a diverse group of people together if you want to imagine and invent different futures. And I think something we’ll get into later is the connection to complexity science and what that has revealed about how novelty emerges when diversity is introduced to an existing pattern, and how the same result can be seen in groups of people working on a task. 

I’ve become very fascinated by the whole complexity science and its discoveries. It’s probably one of the most exciting fields of science right now and um that is so meaningful to leadership because we live in what we call a VUCA world. (Volatile, unpredictable, complex and ambiguous.) This VUCA world, this complex, volatile world requires a different kind of leadership. And that is why this starts to resonate with so many. 

Yes. I think that the pandemic has shown that. Leading with uncertainty, or leading into the unknown, that’s probably a whole topic for another whole episode. And that’s huge right now. How do you, how do we, lead into the next year when we don’t know what’s going to happen?

Exactly. It’s not knowing it is the reality that everything is related to everything. That when you think you have a sense of control, you’re completely kidding yourself because it doesn’t work that way. It’s that reality that people come to grips with and then say, okay, but you can’t give up on leadership in that situation. So what does leadership look like? And that’s what we’re talking about. 

There are so many fascinating threads with this topic, with this whole area. We could go off down many rabbit trails, but let’s get back to our key principles. 

5. Talk IS action

So talk is action. One of the most fundamental misunderstandings about conversational leadership is that it is just talking and does not result in action, as, as we mentioned earlier. But conversational leadership views conversation as action. It is in that back and forth, that reciprocal exchange of information, and the development of ideas that new thoughts and insights emerge, and are developed or co-created. And, in fact, we played a little bit with using the term co-creation rather than conversation, conversational leadership, co-creational leadership, at one point because conversation just sounded a bit too much like chat, a bit too like normal even. But the thing I love about a conversational process is that it enables us to hear the perspective of others to wrestle with information and implications and to come to those insights, those original thoughts that are necessary for real change to occur. You know, nobody really changes because they are given a 40 page document telling them how they should change. I’ve not seen that happen yet. I think we need to wrestle with the problem ourselves and come to those insights in order to change our behaviours, whether that’s on a personal level or in an organisational context as well. And those changes to go deep down in our own attitudes. Even deeper. We’ve obviously been talking a lot in our organisation about mental models currently and what are the mental models that drive our attitudes and behaviours, and then are reflected in the structures and processes of the organisation. So talk is definitely action. 

Yes, definitely. And it is not fluffy in that sense at all. It really is about core changes that actually significantly change the organisation and lead to results. And so that is really important to understand, that it can be quite hard core and that it can be quite focused but it’s often into the unknown because nobody knows beforehand what the right solution is and even if you did it may not be the right solution anymore a year from now. And that is what we need to embrace and why it is about action and conversation together. 

Keeping on talking, keeping on assessing where we’re at.

I think we’re getting towards the point where we might need to wrap up, Nelis. Is there anything else you want to say at this point about key principles? 

6. Conversational leadership opens up space beyond the rational

Yes. There’s something that is a little bit hard to put into a principle as such, but I think conversational leadership opens up a space for us to look at ourselves as more than just rational. So, we already talked about mental models. When we engage people, we engage them as people with all of their backgrounds, with all of their realities, as holistic beings. And that also opens up space for a spiritual aspect. We are Christians and for us then that means that we create space for God to speak into the process. For somebody who’s not a Christian as such it may be defined differently, but we are spiritual beings and to create space for all of reality, I think is important. It gives us a space where we’re open to listen, to explore, to use our intuition, and to hear perspectives that go beyond just the rational aspect.

And to feel our way forward. I particularly love that about intuition, as you know, I’m very much into using intuition in leadership and that sort of sense of leading by feel. So, yes, I agree with you there. Conversational leadership does really does open that up beyond the rational.

And I would even call it, very concretely, it opens up a space for faith. And for me, that is faith that God can act in incredibly complex situations. For somebody else it may be faith that together we can overcome this. But there is a faith component in there, which I think is very important to be aware of. 

Closing

So, I think that’s probably enough for today. And as I’ve said repeatedly, we will be exploring all of this in more depth in future episodes and I’m really looking forward to that. We’ll be interviewing some practitioners for their perspective too. For now, you might want to hop over into our blog at leadershipinconversation.net. That’s all one word, leadershipinconversation. We’d love to hear from you. Tell us what you think. Tell us what you heard today that you want to hear more about, because we’ll use that feedback to shape our future episodes. leadershipinconversation.net  

And please do join us because it’s in conversation that it happens. 

Absolutely. Thank you for joining us.