Transcript

Kate: This is our ninth episode. Can you believe it, Nelis?

Nelis: No,  it’s come fast, hasn’t it, and it’s also one that closes this season.

Kate: Yes, you just stole the words out of my mouth. I was just going to say this is the concluding episode of Season 1. And just to let you know upfront, Nelis is going on sabbatical for 3 months, so we will be back in April hopefully. But first we wanted to do a little bit of a review of the journey of Season 1 and what we’ve learned, what we are learning on this journey into conversational leadership.

Nelis: Yes, it’s exciting to look back, isn’t it? Because when I look at the comments we’ve received from people as we talk, not so much on the website, but as we converse with people, as we hear some of the emails we’ve got, and it’s actually very exciting to see it’s had an impact. It’s being used, it’s shaping the thinking of at least some people. And that’s exciting to see. That’s the reason we did this, 

Kate: And people are pushing back as well. People are asking good questions. People are challenging us, holding us accountable, which is great. Part of why we started this really is to create a conversation in our organisation but also wider. I know you’ve had some friends that have listened to it who aren’t colleagues of ours, as have I, and that’s fun to see, it’s spreading more widely.

Nelis: Yeah, we got this email a month ago or so ago from somebody in the US, who said “ I shared it with my boss, and we’re talking about it as a leadership team and we’re thinking about how to apply this in our context. And that’s the kind of stuff that really floats my boat.

Kate: Love it! And we’ve had some great guests all the way, haven’t we? That’s been fun.

Nelis: Yes, and it’s exciting to see how different people then think about it with us. I’ve really appreciated those podcasts where we were together with guests. The first one we did was after our first experimentation with this, the big event. 

Kate: Yes, we had three colleagues join us.

Nelis: It was fun to see there, too, what you just mentioned, the combination of feedback and real excitement, thinking about especially how context shapes the conversation.

Kate: Yes, and then we had Reinhold join us. Who was a key speaker at that event and part of our experiment, and it was great to hear some of his experience and perspective and understanding of conversational leadership from working in quite a different organisation.

Nelis: Yes. I appreciated his bringing in that sense of how do you bring in the people who are disadvantaged, who don’t dare to speak up normally, who are from minority contact cultures. That was really really helpful to talk about, and I think it’s something that needs to continue to be part of the conversation, because so often the conversation is with the people who already are speaking up anyway.

Kate: The people who already have power, who already have voice. Conversational leadership is a great way to include others. At the heart of it you need everyone. You need the wisdom of everyone. You need that diversity. And so I think it can definitely be leveraged to increase inclusion and diversity in your organisation.

Nelis: But it requires thoughtful involvement of these people and and to me that that was a really powerful conversation to have to think about. Because often I think a lot of leaders try to be conversational, to some extent at least, but then do it with the usual suspects.

Kate: And it was great to talk to Meera and Albert, who, I think, really changed my perspective on what conversational leadership might look like in other cultures. Obviously, they were coming from Asia, two different contexts in Asia, and I had thought on the basis of previous conversations with some colleagues from Asia that maybe conversational leadership wouldn’t work in a hierarchical setting, but actually they explained how it works differently there.

Nelis: Fascinating isn’t it how that hierarchy maintains, but it changes the role of a leader. And in some ways I think that’s actually just as true in a Western context, it plays out differently, but it does not undermine leadership in any way. It actually changes the shape of it, and it becomes more – dare I say – effective. Not effective only, but also affective.

Kate: But also the locus of the conversations changes. I thought that was really interesting, that the conversations were more likely to happen outside of the formal meeting context, outside the boardroom, probably over a meal, but they still happen. And they are just as important. But you wouldn’t probably be having this all together, in a free for all in the meeting room.

Nelis: Yes, that’s fascinating. And I think that even in a Western context there’s something to learn from that, because how often is it said, even in a Western context, that the real stuff happens during coffee breaks. So even there, can you embrace that and do conversational leadership outside the official?

Kate: Yes. We also had Jason and what I loved about that conversation with Jason is that the focus of his Phd and his particular interest is how we can use conversational leadership to improve our decision making. Because, as we said in that episode, one of the critiques of conversational leadership is often that it’s just talk, it doesn’t actually lead to anything. And I think that’s conversational leadership not done well, when you leave it open ended. But I love that he’s wanting to focus on how it can improve the decisions we make through including more people.

Nelis: Yes, and that is an area that needs more research. And I think all of us can benefit from that. And I think we’ll come back to that later in our conversation today, as to how does it influence decision making? One other thing we talked about, I think, in several of the episodes, is the importance of paying attention and listening well, that we, as leaders are careful not to speak up too quickly, to resist the temptation to tie it up all neatly with a bow, and to say, okay, here it is. But to sit with the uncomfortable situation of unresolved issues.

Kate: Yes. I still find that very hard. But it’s worthwhile. It’s really worthwhile. If you can tolerate that ambiguity, that lack of decision, that lack of certainty, and just let people talk things out. I think you come to things in a whole new way.

Nelis: And that’s the tension, isn’t it? You need to come to decisions. You can’t just sit with it forever. But to sit with it longer than we’re used to  is, I think, a really really helpful discipline. But then also to know when to say, okay, this is it this the decision, we’re moving forward with that

Kate: I think it’s particularly hard. I’ve just been reflecting on this recently how you do conversational leadership in a remote working setting when you’ve got an hour or 90 min for a meeting and you know every 5 min of your meeting is earmarked for something. And that really squashes the conversation, kills the sort of creativity and generative potential of a meeting. And I’m still not quite sure what to do about that, and how to manage that, because an hour goes very quickly when that’s all you’ve got, and then you all leave and go on to another meeting or something else. You don’t have the milling around in the corridor afterwards, and things like that. It puts a lot of pressure on that time, that one hour.

Nelis: Yes, we’ve experienced this a little bit. I think there is a there is a need to

distinguish that somewhat from the quick decision making things you need to do, when you earmark your time well, you’ve got a set agenda, you go through that. That is never going to be pure conversational leadership. There’s just no way you can’t do that well. But then to also have some meetings – and we’ve done that as a leadership team – where you actually give yourself an hour to explore and to be generative. And, I’ve actually loved that our board has tried to do some of that as well. And so to do that, I think, is very possible, but you need to make a conscious decision to set some time aside to do that, where you keep it open ended, and you don’t build it full, and you don’t expect to necessarily have the results in that very session.

Kate: Yeah. And maybe expanding expectations. Say, “We’re going to take two hours, not our normal sixty minutes”. And explain to people upfront, “This is what we’re going to do. We’re going to explore together”. So that expectations are framed helpfully for that time. 

Nelis: Yeah, I think we need to come back to that idea of expectations later in our conversation, because some of my experiences looking back over the year have revealed that that is a really important aspect, setting expectations beforehand.

Kate: Another thing I think I wanted to mention reflecting on what we’ve learned is that the real distinctive of conversational leadership is this making meaning together part. The co-creation.

Nelis: Yes. And I think that touches on what we just discussed about purpose. So there are times when that is absolutely key, where you are in this situation that there is no obvious solution, and you need to work together to really make sense of the situation, and then explore where that’s leading you. It’s going into the unknown and explore that from every angle, and that’s where a co-creative process really works well. And that’s where conversational leadership, I think, is exceptionally helpful.

Kate: Okay, Well, let’s move on. Our second question for ourselves today was, what has it been like practically to figure out how to do conversational leadership in the midst of a busy working life, where we don’t have the luxury of being external consultants who can plan a nice, neat intervention that has a beginning, middle, and end. We’re living in the middle of multiple conversations, all going on at the same time, sort of dancing from one to the other and putting one on hold until the next time we meet. How’s that been, Nelis?

Nelis: That’s interesting. Just before I try to answer that, together with you, part of the challenge I think we’re constantly feeling is, how do you combine it with other things, other approaches? Because it’s not like conversational leadership is the only way to do leadership suddenly. And so it’s this constantly going back in and out of different tools and different approaches, and using it as a both/and.

Kate King: You are answering the question, by the way! And I think that’s the answer. I don’t think we can do conversational leadership all the time. There are times when we need to make quick decisions without consultation. So if you commit to using conversation leadership does that mean you have to use it for everything, or not? I think not. But we’ve also said in the past that conversational leadership is a way of seeing organisations differently, as the many conversations that happen.

Nelis: I think you’re bringing up a really neat point. So I think you’re right. I mean, it depends on your definition of conversational leadership. In some ways it influences everything we do. And it has started more and more to influence everything I do. I look at everything that happens in the organisation somewhat from that angle and say, what’s happening here? How are people talking to each other? How can I be part of that? At the same time, when you look at it as a tool – which it is also – then sometimes it’s more appropriate than other times. So yes, when we talked about this earlier, we talked about it, really depends on the definition, and I think that’s becoming more and more clear to me that that’s helpful to think about. 

Nelis: So you made an interesting comment just a second ago about external consultants, and I think that is part of the distinctive of our approach is that we’re trying to do it as leaders and not as outsiders. And that to me is something that we need to constantly keep in mind -it’s very different from outside interventions -and help people think about what that means in their daily lives. And that’s what these conversations are about. And that’s exciting.

Kate: So one example of one of my working relationships with one of my team leaders: we did an annual review recently, and I realised that our meetings have become a really highly productive space where we co-create solutions together. It’s really interesting. We’ll often each bring a problem that we didn’t know how to solve on our own, and by the end of the meeting we’ve come up with a great solution. I know that’s not revolutionary or anything but it just keeps happening, and it’s really interesting, I think, to see how we have the conditions present for quality conversation: where we feel free with each other to just bat around ideas. There’s a lot of trust. Nothing’s too stupid to suggest. That’s been really exciting to see that happen actually.

Nelis: Which is interesting because it’s in a hierarchical kind of situation. You are her boss but that falls away obviously, and I think that’s part of your conversational leadership approach. You work as peers in many ways.

Kate King: Very much so. I don’t really see myself as people’s boss. I forget that quite often. We’re peers, we’re working together on this.

Nelis: I think that is really neat, because I think that is part of conversational leadership. You are the leader, but in the end most of the time you’re working together.

Kate King: And it doesn’t really make a difference. I don’t really have a monopoly on wisdom or answers, or anything. I might have access to information that she doesn’t have that helps us to come to a conclusion, because as a leader, my access to information is wider than hers or I have a bigger picture perspective because I’m invited into other spaces. But she also has greater experience at other levels of the organisation, which is often what we need to make decisions.

Nelis: Yeah. I think that is part of conversational leadership just made very concrete in a one-on-one situation. 

Kate: So do you have any examples from your working life, Nelis?

Nelis:  Yeah, quite a few actually. There have been several very sticky situations over the course of the year where I had to deal with complex conflictual issues. I wanted to do that conversationally. And I think that ended up being very, very helpful, because it allowed the people involved to be part of the process of coming to resolution. At the same time there are limitations to that, in the sense that I had certain things that were non-negotiable, certain things that weren’t on the table. And what I’m learning in all of this is how important expectations are in that. So, in some cases I communicated that more clearly than in others. What was the non-negotiable, and where the open space was, and how we could explore that together. And I think that is key. I saw the power of the conversation, otherwise I think the situations would have ended up much worse. We were able to come to reasonable solutions. But I think there was also some frustration with the fact that you come with those non-negotiables, and you are not necessarily clear about it. And that is something that I’m learning is, okay here, here are the non-negotiables, and this is why. And here is the space we need to explore together and then really frame well. And I think part of conversational leadership, I’m learning is how to do that framing appropriately, and how to combine the responsibility with the open-endedness. It’s powerful to see that. But it’s also an art that you need to learn, that I certainly very much need to learn.

Kate: We are still learning. It’s hard. I’ve found myself, you know, kicking, picking myself after a situation, going “Oh, that should have been, I should have done that differently. I should have done that conversationally”. You know it’s not yet ingrained. I think, for the big events, the things we plan. We’re getting there now. But it’s the less planned, more organic moments, yes, just constantly being aware. And I think, like you say, framing is really helpful, but it does take figuring out for yourself first the frame, what is this space that we can be conversational in? And where are the boundaries? What are the non-negotiables?

Nelis: And an interesting question there is, to what extent is that frame negotiable? Because I am making those decisions by myself, non conversationally, about the frame, and that’s a tension.

Kate: Yes, so you probably need to do that framing in conversation with others. And we’ve both had times we failed to do this right, haven’t we? Let’s just get that out. We all need to be wearing L plates, learner plates.

Nelis: I love that image. Visualise that and actually say that, because that combines actually with something that I’ve become aware of over the course of the year, because of this podcast, because of what we’re sharing in the organisation, people have certain expectations of us now. Which becomes both a gift and a burden.

Kate King: Yes! That’s what happens if you put yourself out there on a podcast, people actually hold you to the standard, and that’s good. That’s good. It helps us to sharpen our leadership. But it’s also quite a pressure as well.

Nelis: Because we’re going to disappoint people.

Kate King: Yes, because we’re human.

Nelis: We’re human, and we’re still learning. As you said, those big L plates. And at the same time, people see you and me as the experts on the topic. It’s hard to be both the big L and the expert. 

Kate: We’re not experts, we’re just learning. We’ve said that all along. We want this to be a conversation where we learn, together with others. Disclaimer everyone: We’re still learning, and we will mess up. Thank you.

Kate: So are there any situations where you haven’t been able to use conversational leadership?

Nelis: In some ways, no. Because, as you said earlier, it’s a way of looking at the organisation, and I think it’s influenced all of my interactions. But as a tool – you talked about those meetings where you’ve got an agenda you’ve got to go through – no, can’t use that. With my regular meetings, with those who report to me, a lot of it is not necessarily conversational, even though there’s aspects to where I switch into that conversation. But then quickly you step out of it as well, and you just need to get things done. So yeah, that’s part of it.

Kate: Is conversational leadership mostly in use when we want to co-create something together, to do that shared meaning-making? 

Nelis: No, not just. But I think that’s where it shines most. Why, it’s the most natural to use. And yes, that’s where I’ve used it. But then there’s also places where you’re just training people or you’re sharing information, and that isn’t necessarily conversational. I’ve done training events that weren’t necessarily conversational. Had some conversational aspects, but mostly not.

Nelis: I just did a three day mentoring event with six people. And the first two days were not that conversational. We had some conversational elements. Of course we used conversation as a tool, but it was not conversational leadership as such, and interestingly enough, on the third day we went into that and started having a little bit of an open space conversation. We went into appreciative inquiry, and then got into some shared meaning-making about what’s happening in our organisation. And that was very much conversational. It’s kind of neat to see how you sometimes need just a lot of time to set the stage. You need to build trust. It’s not necessarily conversational leadership, but it sets the stage for it. So are there situations you can’t use it? I think you can always use it, but sometimes it takes more time, or it’s not the moment yet.

Kate: Yes. And I think we discussed in a previous episode, in a crisis situation, life or death decisions that need to be made, you have to act quicker. You can’t have a lengthy drawn out conversational process, but you can bear in mind some of the elements we’ve talked about in conversational leadership is having the right people in the room having a diversity of people.

making sure that you’re including the wisdom of all, not just a few top leaders. I think you can do that quicker.

Nelis: Yeah, sometimes. As I said before, you’ve got those non-negotiables, and it just wouldn’t make sense to move into conversational leadership, because in some ways that would be cheating people because it’s already been decided. And you’ve got to accept that and just pass it on and say, this is a decision. You may like it, or you may not like it. This is what it is, because then, to invite people into a process in something that’s already been decided really, is wrong. Actually, we’ve got a conversational process organisation wide right now, and it’s interesting, some people think that actually that’s the case, the decision has already been made. So you’ve got to be very clear that if you have made a decision, you’re not going to do this, because that would be unreal.

Kate: Even though we’ve stated it. We’ve said the Board has not made a decision yet. They’ve expressed a preference. People still come –  and I think that’s a trust issue – thinking, “Well, this is just rubber stamping, this conversational process is just rubber stamping a decision they’ve already made”. And actually it’s not. And I don’t know how you can convince people, really.

Nelis: I don’t think you necessarily can, because it’s part of the culture where leadership is often distrusted in our society. Just look around us.

Kate: Well, with good reason, sometimes, when you look around us in our society.

Nelis: And leaders often don’t exactly really invite you in. They act as if, and in reality they don’t. So you’ve got to gradually build up that trust, that in this case it’s different. I think that’s what we’re still doing. Building up that trust in this first year of talking about it, sharing about it, practising it.

Kate King: So we are going to take a break. And looking forward to our next season, hopefully starting in April, what do we still want to explore around conversational leadership? What are the questions we still have? Any thoughts from you?

Nelis van den Berg: I think we are going to continue to discover those as we go, like we have this year. But one that’s interesting to me because of my experience this last year is, how do you use conversational leadership in conflict situations? What can we learn from that?

Kate King: One I have is conversation killers. What are they? And how can we avoid them? What are the things that we do, even in the middle of the process, or a meeting, that will just suddenly shut down conversation. I’d like to look at those sometime.

Nelis van den Berg: Yeah, that’d be great. Also would like to explore what conversation leadership looks like in other contexts, say hospitals, church. Think of a variety of contexts.

Nelis van den Berg: I think it’d be great to continue to have a significant number of guests in our conversation and widen our horizons as a result.

Kate King: Yes, definitely. And we’d love to  hear from you, our listeners. What are your questions? Please do send them to us at info@leadinginconversation.net. Just a practical note. We’ve had to close off comments for now, because we suddenly started getting a huge amount of spam comments. We’re hoping to sort that out and get the comments opened up again for Season 2.

Nelis van den Berg: Even with those comments closed, I’m looking forward to continuing the conversation. When we meet people, but also through email, and hopefully again through comments soon.

Kate: Thanks. It’s been fun, hasn’t it?

Nelis: It has, and I hope it will continue to be.

Kate: Have a good sabbatical. And hopefully we’ll see you all again and talk to you all again soon.