Transcript
Kate: I’m really excited that we have some guests with us today to talk about conversational leadership from other cultural perspectives. Nelis, why don’t you introduce our guests?
Nelis: Yes, I’m excited too. These are people – Albert and Meera – that I met on a training course for leaders. I’m excited to hear their perspectives. As you said, Kate, from a cultural perspective, it’s so easy to get sucked into the assumptions that things work the way they work in the West and we’re just a small minority in the world. So we really want to hear what it looks like from an Asian perspective. So, why don’t you first introduce, well, have you guys introduce yourselves? Ladies first, so Meera, give us a little bit of who you are and where you come from.
Meera: Thank you. So, yes, my name is Meera and I met Nelis on a program that we’re doing together, a study program that we’re doing together. So I am based in South East Asia. That’s where I come from. Growing up in a country that was multicultural and multi-religious, very comfortable with polarities. I have friends and family members from different faiths, and also different people groups. So it’s not unusual for me. And I have worked, my background is corporate reputation management and crisis communication. So I worked with multinational corporations, being the consultant to CEOs and their top teams. And I work with clients from different cultural backgrounds: Europeans, Australia, New Zealand, Koreans, Japanese, and learning how relationships work differently. And how do you manage that with different clients from different backgrounds? And then I served in-faith based organisations, currently my third faith-based organisation. And again it was always working very closely with the leaders, the founders, the directors, and consulting with them and journeying with them in terms of taking the work forward in different countries across different cultures. And I thrive in working in diversity, I love that. It’s what gives me life. Love people and love being on the ground with people. Especially passionate about working with young people from the global south because I believe they are the future of the church and the country. So that’s me.
Nelis: Great, good to hear that, and there’s lots of hooks for further conversation aren’t there? Albert and where do you come from, what do you do?
Albert: My name is Albert. I am from Hong Kong. Actually I have kind of over 40 years of work experience and currently for almost 20 years I’ve been heading a mission organisation in Hong Kong and focusing on the least reached people. My role is the General Secretary or Executive Director, but I have to say compared to many other places, although I’m staying in Hong Kong, I still consider myself not so multicultural because of the composition of people in Hong Kong. Although we do have a lot of international exposures, a lot of international colleagues, and we do work sometimes with Indonesians, we do work sometimes with Malaysians and Taiwanese and South East Asians and also some Westerners but not so much compared to other parts of South East Asia like Singapore or Malaysia. But I’m a keen learner. I am really eager to learn from all sorts of cultures and all sorts of people so that I can really work better with them.
Nelis: Great, thank you. That’s quite a rich variety of backgrounds, isn’t it, Kate? My first question to both of you is, you’ve listened to our podcast, you’ve probably done some reading, you’ve been exposed to this in this leadership training we were all at. To what extent does conversational leadership resonate with you, to what extent is that something that you’re familiar with?
Albert: Well, maybe let me say something first, because I’m the most ignorant. My background is more in engineering. I’ve been in the University for over 20 years, teaching computer science. So, I’m more inclined to engineering type of things. So, when I first encountered this leadership as conversational leadership it really shocked me. I really doubted, I have to say. Can it really work? It seems to me that is more kind of empowering process through the conversation, instead of giving out direction or instruction from the leader. The leader try to converse and try to empower. It’s kind of mixing up some coaching questions, good coaching questions, a good kind of conversation that brings up the potential of the of the conversants, the one who converses with.
Nelis: That’s exactly one of the key elements in, in, in this approach, of course, there’s more to it than that. But yeah, that’s a core aspect. Yeah. And we will come back to this later as we talk about how would that work, or how does that work in your context? Meera to what extent do you feel comfortable with this topic? Have you encountered this, have you practised it?
Meera: I think conversation is a subset of communication. So I come from a communication background and I know the power of communication to shape perceptions and to shift perceptions as well. And one subset of communication is conversation. So if I look at my corporate background, conversation was part of what we used to encourage leaders to do, especially when you’re taking an organisation through difficult change. Organisational change, merger and acquisition. How do you handle the uncertainty that your staff feel or your people feel? How would you journey with them? So, yes, there can be written communication. There can be recorded communication, but conversation is as well to allow for question and answer, for each direction and engagement. So coming from that background, and then moving into faith-based organisations. The first organisation I served with, were looking for an organisational shift, just because they’re coming close to half a century mark and they had done many things and were doing many things. But how do they streamline their communication so that people understand them better and know whether they are aligned to that organisation’s values and goals? So again we used a conversation. I basically journeyed with the top leaders of the organisation, because change is a very difficult subject and especially if you are exploring change at a 50 year mark where people are very comfortable with the way things are done. It’s very difficult. Are you moving against the tide? And so one of the approaches was I encouraged them to look at the leaders around the world where each one had relationships and to go down to the ground and just spend time with them in conversation, explaining the “why” we’re doing the change. And how does that involve them and then to allow them to speak into that process as well so that there is some sense of ownership, that this is not just imposed on me, but I’m also invested in it. And conversation was the main tool that we used before you go down the typical route of having a large meeting, doing a presentation and getting people to vote for it. So it was something that was never done before and when it was put to a vote, for the first time in the history of the organisation, they got a 99 percent vote for the change. That’s the power of conversation. Of course, I did ask, “Who’s that 1%?”! But, you know…
Nelis: Yes, and that sense of informal conversations, that ties very closely with that we’ve been discussing and discovering as being incredibly powerful.
Kate: With listening as an essential part of conversations.
Meera: Definitely.
Nelis: Albert, as we’re talking about this, you said that this is as an engineer quite new to you. Have you had some experiences anyway where you have used this empowering conversational approach?
Albert: Yes, actually my leadership is kind of like an evolving leadership because from my academic background and engineering background, I used to jump to problem solving. As an engineer we always look into the problem and then we try to produce solutions. I’m kind of trained to do that. But in terms of conversational and interactive type leading people, we are co-creating the solution through dialogue, through interactions. I’m picking up over the years and actually for the Asian like myself and maybe Meeera we found that most of the solutions is through mealtime discussions, kind of informal, And then we come up with something very brilliant. I love it. That’s why people always looked up to me for having meals. People having meals together because in the Asian context they used to expect the leader to treat them. So always have a good treat then you can have a good solution or something, good answers. So I’m still learning about it but that made me broke sometimes!
Nelis: Interesting. So conversational leadership is quite costly financially for you. Because you’ve got to invite them to meals.
Albert: That’s right.
Kate: But I love that. I think conversation happens more easily around a table, around a meal, for many reasons. I’d love to explore that sometime, the relationship between food and the nature of the time we spend together and conversation and what can come out of these conversations differently to if you’re in a boardroom context or a work context.
Albert: Yeah, I’m already quite non-Asian. Because to the Asian context is more kind of directional leadership. But my wife, kind of co-working with me and she’s the co-leader of the organisation and she insisted we have to have it kind of like interactive, conversational, and she’s more a counsellor background. So she asked me, she forced me, actually to treat the people and then put it in a very comfortable environment, instead of you know, having a formal table, discussed things and that. We used to have all these mealtimes first and then after that, you know, during the meeting it’s very straightforward outcomes.
Nelis: So Meera, do you recognise… I heard Albert say two key things. One is, normally Asian culture is quite directional but if you get together around meals there is space for the more informal way of leadership. Are they things that you recognize?
Meera: It’s true that with Asian cultures – and I’ve worked in East Africa teams as well – and so it’s true that for them it’s more hierarchical. If you’re a leader, then you speak, and we’re supposed to carry that task however we may feel about it. But I think for me – if Albert mentions about informal conversations about meals – for me in my experience, to be able to have effective conversations where it’s not just me speaking but also having them speak into it, it first requires me taking time to get to know my people. And relationship is very key. So in the teams that I… at one point in the second organisation that I was working with, I was working in ten cross cultural settings all at the same time. What I used to do when I used to go to these places I would say, can I stay with you? And so I stayed with my team members and their family, eat with them, sleep with them, their families, get to know their life stories. And then I share my life story and after that we can talk about matters concerning work. I would say well you know from where I come from, in this situation, this would be how I would advise anyone to approach it and then I would say to them, but then again, how would you take this and apply it to your cultural context. So, I would say, I know the strategy, but I don’t know your culture. And so, how would you bring both of those together? But before I could get to the stage to talk about that, really, it was relationship-building first. Allowing them to get to know me, to know my heart, where I’m coming from, that I’m there for them, and I’m there with them, and then for me to listen to their story and understand their context. So when sometimes, there is resistance, because I understand their context I understand where the heart of the resistance is, and then I can work with that. So, I think relationship building is very, very key. So you have to invest that time. That means you can’t just get down to business once you get there, that usually is not taken very well. You know, arriving, at some place and then just getting down to business. Because it almost makes them feel like we are a means to an end, but if you take the time to get to know them as people, and you’re interested in them and in their families and then as part of it, can we journey together on the work front? It totally shifts attitudes and people are just more open to engage and to speak into it.
Albert: It took me years to learn it because as an engineer background person I’m used to pressing a button and get solutions. But dealing with people, relation always go first. We have to relate first. I learn, it takes some years for me to really learn it. And people, said I’m getting more mellow now, more than 20, if you work with me 20 years ago, you find me kind of you know, go straight, get the solution, get things done and very quickly, but relation always not the priority. But now, as I’m getting older, I found, you know, build a relation is number one. And then we can then work together and and yeah, I’m learning it now.
Meera: And it’s also very different with different generations. Probably our generation and the generation before a different style probably worked, but with the younger generations, with the youth, I’m realising who, regardless if they came from Global South, if they are people, young people raised in poor communities and slums, they are quite astute and they are quite exposed, thanks to technology and smartphones. They are people who want to be able to speak into, want to be able to contribute. They ask questions and I welcome questions and some questions are very difficult and sometimes I do say to them, actually, that’s a really good question, I don’t have the answer, but you must keep calling us out, as in us meaning guests who come into your country and are working with, you need to call us out. You need to ask us questions, hard questions, and whatever you observe, you’re not clear, please, feel free to come and ask me. The millennial,the youth are completely different and I think relationship engagement, conversation is very, very key for them. And even if, like I said, they came from slums and poor communities they do have this belief in them, “We know our people and our context better”. And I think that is something that we need to learn to tackle.
Nelis: It’s fascinating how much of this is universal because when you talked about the importance of relationships, I think that is true in most any culture. It expresses itself differently whether you’re in a western culture, in the Global South, Asia, I think there is something to that in every culture. So it’s fascinating.
Kate: Although I think in Western cultures there is an assumption that you can just go in and start talking work straight away. There isn’t that background, there isn’t that expectation that you get to… I think things do go a lot better if you do get to know the whole person and we want to do that. But it’s, I think it’s not a natural behaviour for us. I think we need to learn that too. And I think what you’re saying about what’s universal is the next generation – the Millennials, the Zs – there’s more commonality because they are digital natives. They have grown up with a very different environment to us, that is shaping them.
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Nelis: It’s interesting, both of you mentioned something around. Okay, Albert, you said, I’ve become more mellow. Meera you talk about, sometimes I just have to say, “I don’t know”. In a hierarchical culture that is kind of hard because people expect – I suspect – that you have the answers, that you give clear direction and if you don’t, it may be seen as weakness. How do you deal with that, in that cross-cultural context?
Meera: I think interestingly, for me to be able to say, “I don’t know” or to be comfortable in saying, “Can you tell me how you would apply this in your context?” actually that was the thing that brought the barriers down. That was the thing that shifted this whole attitude of hierarchical because then I was saying, “I know this much, but I don’t know everything. What you know, can you bring to the table and can we make it work together?”. That shifted this whole hierarchical stuff. There is still respect in terms of me as a leader but I think they saw me as someone where it was a safe space for them to bring their ideas or bring their concerns, or their doubts and questions. But if I was not comfortable in saying, “I don’t know” or if I’m not comfortable in being vulnerable, in some instances, then that would maintain the hierarchical mode. If I felt like I needed to hold it all together and keep it all together and have all the answers that would just perpetuate that cycle of hierarchical leadership.
Albert: Well from my experiences Hong Kong, compared to other Asian culture, is relatively less hierarchical, but still we do have some hierarchy but from my experience, well I’m kind of dating back 20 years ago when I first started as the executive director. At that time I’m kind of always the one who provides the final result, the final solution and I’m the one who has the solution for everything. But now as time goes, I started to be kind of more conversational or more interactive in a way that as I grow in life experience, I really want to develop people instead of I’m the one to provide a solution. So, people comment that I’m “not so Asian” in many ways because I used to tell them that this is something I don’t know. This is something I really don’t know, but I can help you to quickly make it work, to make it done, or something like that. So I see the change or kind of evolving, you know, an evolution in my leadership, from kind of very directive to kind of more interaction, interactional and then maybe so-called conversational type and bringing people, more into the scene that they can lead themselves rather than looking up to me to have something. So my organisation is getting more and more and more people they can do on themselves and without really always coming back to me for instructions. Asian culture tends to have the subordinate always come up to you for instruction but now my organisation is set, at least from my Hong Kong organisations, my staff, they don’t quite really need to come to me often for the solution because they can have the solutions and we just have kind of conversation and discussion and that’s it. And then I let them continue to make the decision and get work sense. And so I’m getting better, now, in terms of, my life is a bit more easier.
Nelis: That’s fascinating.
Albert: In Asian context, to be a leader is very tough because people look up to you as kind of the king. You know, if you are in Korea or somewhere, you know you are the final problem solver, you can do everything. But now I’m not that person you know, I always tell my staff. I’m not that person you know, no need to come up to me for that.
Kate: And how do they handle that when their cultural assumptions about you, and how you will lead, bump up against what they meet in you?
Albert: Oh, it’s a cultural cultivation – it’s spent more than five years for me to cultivate that kind of culture that they don’t need to come to me for solution. Okay. It takes time. Every time they come to me for solution, then I come back to them asking questions, and they do that in a kind of like coaching. Gradually, they find that “Well, I can do that, you know, I don’t really need to come to Albert for that, you know. So getting more friends-type working environment rather than superior-subordinate type environment.
Nelis: Have people started to respect you more because of that or less?
Albert: My experience is they love me more. I can tell because they actually, they come to me saying that, you know, if I were with you 15 years ago, I can tell you were so aloof and though I didn’t say anything, immediately they said you are arrogant. I say, is that true? You know, I’m not that arrogant but they said you know you look like you are arrogant. They come back to me and say that, you have some big changes over the years. Thank God for that. I look more like their father now than their superior, or a boss.
Nelis: That’s fascinating and your comment about how it takes time to grow that is really insightful.
Meera: I think I found your question, Nelis, very interesting as you asked, “Do they still respect you?”. I think you know different cultures have different definition of respect or expectation of respect. So the way I am with my team members, they still sometimes call me “Yes. Ma’am” or “Yes, boss” and we would laugh, but there is that respect? Being comfortable to say, “I don’t know” or being comfortable to be vulnerable, did not in any way cause them to disrespect me or lower the respect. It seems to have just brought the respect to a higher level. On one level it made us seem both as peers in the sense that they lack certain resources or certain gifts. But then I was telling them, “Well, I also lack certain resources and certain gifts, but if we pool it together, then you know, then we are richer for it and we’re more whole as a team, but I do have that years of knowledge and experience that you don’t, and I’m bringing it to the table as an offering”. So it didn’t in any way lower the respect. I think it sort of increased. Albert said a key word. He said “love”. And I remember when I was leaving one of the teams, in their farewell message to me, they said to me, we had many guest workers who came to our country and said that they came to our country because they loved us. But we did hear them say something about us and our culture that was negative. Or they kept saying “We are here because we sacrifice”. And they said to me, you never said you came here because you loved us. You never said, you came here out of sacrifice. But we know that you love us because we saw it in your words and we saw it in your actions. And you gave us space to grow. And those locals or those nationals are now in leadership, and that relationship continues even though I’m no longer in that organisation, they still make sure they send me messages to say, “Well, I just am on this foreign trip, you know, for a training program. Thank you for all that you did. I never thought I could be here, but I’m getting this chance because of what you did for me”. Or sometimes they still reach out to me and say, “Well, I have this issue and I’m trying to navigate it. This is the way I think I should go. What do you think?” So, they still allow me to speak into and continue as their mentor. Yeah, so it didn’t in any way lower the respect, it heightened and it also deepened the relationship. In a way, we’re both journeying together. We’re both discovering and learning. I might be a few steps ahead of you on certain matters. But on other aspects you could be ahead of me. So it was a mutuality.
Kate: Thanks Meera, that’s really interesting as it takes me on to my next question for you both, which is, you’ve both obviously had a lot of experience in developing younger leaders. What would be your advice for Asian leaders, younger leaders, who are looking at conversational leadership and are a bit hesitant and are thinking. Will this work in my culture? How will this go down with people? What advice would you have for them?
Meera: For me and my experience of the younger nationals that I served, that was how I did it, conversational leadership and they have taken on that. And it seems to be working well, from what I’m hearing back from them. I think, because it allows their team members who are all nationals, to feel like they have some value to contribute. That it’s not just to receive instructions that they can speak into it as well. If you’re asking that question as to whether conversational leadership among young Asian leaders is a tough goal, I think not not. Not in the circles that I’ve been in, the circles I’m still engaged with, that seems to be the modus operandi today. I don’t know about other circles, I can only speak for myself, but that seems to be the way because they have experienced that from me, they’ve experienced that from other guest workers in our team and so they feel empowered by it and they are practising it, and it’s really producing positive results. And what conversational leadership does in these circles is that it allows people to thrive and grow and you are in a way equipping the next generation or you’re equipping your team members to step into leadership positions, to empower them, to give them a sense of “I can do it too. There is something of me and from me that is of value that can really help the whole team to flourish, a whole organisation to flourish”. So, it is an indirect way of equipping future leaders, it’s an indirect way of empowering people, and I think it’s also a way of making sure that as you work together or as you lead, you still respect and keep each person’s dignity because you’re allowed to engage in the process and speak into them.
Albert: Yeah, if you allow me to say something, I think there are several “Cs” we can consider. Well, I think as leaders normally we have to do something and although we show our vulnerability, although we show we are not omniscient in everything but still, we need to demonstrate to them we are hard-working and competent in certain areas. And this is the first C. The second C I would like to advise the leaders is that no matter what we have to show our care. Care for our colleagues, in our conversation, in our actions. And another thing is that I would like to recommend is to always show them that when they have problems, although you don’t know the answers, you would like to co-work with them. Co-working with them. I’m always there to help. I’m always there to assist. So the several Cs: show them you are are not a leader just doing your dumb leading, you do have the competency but at the same time, you do care. And at the same time, you are co-working with them and you are already co-creating things. And I think that would be helpful.
Meera: I think I’ve also learned like Albert. I mean, my leadership style has changed because coming from the corporate culture, it was always about performance. Performance trumps people. But I think, you know, over the years I’ve learned that people first, performance second. People trump performance. Also in terms of what are your values as a leader? And my value is to ensure that the people that I’m leading will grow and flourish and thrive. I don’t see myself as a leader forever. When I go into a leadership position, my aim is to work myself out of it. And that the team that I’m leading will then step into my role. And I think that really having that sort of a value, conversational leadership just falls into place naturally, because that’s one of the ways of allowing people to speak into the process, to be invested, to engage, to participate. And that’s the only way you’ll grow into that role of being leaders. And then I can walk out and be happy to hand it over to them. So, that value, I think is really, really important. And I think you’ll always have a place in their life, as it has been with my team members who are now in leadership. We still engage because there’s a relationship. I continue to be their mentor, not on the books, not on paper, but I continue to journey with them in life. And I’ve seen them as singles, now they are married with one kid, and I continue to journey as their companion and their confidante and their mentor. And I think to me, that is what is most precious. I think leadership is not just in a formal role, but leadership takes many different aspects.
Nelis: Absolutely. And I love that. Because leadership is too often confused with just titles but actually it’s something quite different. Yeah, I love how you both say, it’s so much part of the shaping of the next generation of leaders. In order to do that, you need to empower. You need to give space, you need to help them come up with solutions themselves, etc. It does, as you said, Meera, fall into place naturally. I want to do one or two last things. There is one question I’m asking myself: in the specific Asian cultures and I’m using plural because I realise it’s very tempting to talk about Asia, but Asia is incredibly diverse in itself. But with that caveat, what do you see as key cultural opportunities that young leaders, people who want to use conversational leadership, can take advantage of in their cultural context? That actually makes it easier rather than harder?
Albert: In the Asian culture, the hierarchy is so strong and conversational leadership actually urges the leader to listen. If you ask me, I would strongly recommend or encourage Asian leaders, take time to listen, and conversational leadership is kind of urging them to listen rather than keep giving commands, giving out instructions. Try to listen. Listen with your heart. I can tell a story about some Asian leaders. Although they allow the subordinate to speak, but after all, the so-called allowing the subordinate to speak out and say something, and then the leader said “I’m still the King and that’s my solution, that’s my instruction, do it!”. So it’s not truly conversational leadership. So that the whole point is, if you ask me to advise on Asian leaders, with that strong hierarchy type mentality, we have to be humble and listen. I think listening is the key.
Meera: I think you’re right, Nelis. Asian cultures are very diverse, even in a country like India, there’s so many diverse cultures in just one country. But if you ask about opportunities for conversational leadership, if we go back to our culture, in every Asian culture, if you go down to the family unit, wisdom is passed down orally through stories and faith-based stories, mythologies. And yet, the stories that are told when wisdom is embedded in it, it doesn’t have the conclusion. It’s always open ended. And so children and young people are basically invited to do critical thinking, and to find the way themselves. So, in a way conversational leadership has been happening for centuries, even in family units. And I think there is an opportunity there because with especially the current generation they want to be able to speak into it, they want to be able to engage and contribute, but I think conversational leadership still gives you that route of sharing some wisdom, some experience and yet not giving the conclusion, or the resolution, making it open-ended and then helping them to engage. So, there, definitely it’s not foreign, it actually has been happening. But I think at a certain point of history, I think when colonisation happened, then that shift happened, where the top down, the hierarchy, where you’re told exactly to the final point, this is exactly what needs to be done. But before colonisation it was always, yes, you have the leader and there is a communal discussion and there is wisdom that’s passed down and yet it’s open-ended because everybody needs to do some amount of critical thinking. So in a way, it’s kind of going back. It’s not foreign, it’s not new, it’s going back. It’s sort of like the circle of life. So there’s definitely opportunity, and it definitely fits with the youth, with our current youth in the Asian culture. I think even the African culture. I am so inspired and encouraged by some of the ideas I get from them. And I agree with Albert that as a leader we need to listen because by listening we get the more fuller context but also by listening we are also learning and we are also being shaped by it. We are also growing. I think one of the most important value that a leader needs to hold on is, no matter how high the leadership rank that you sit on, you have to constantly remain in a learning culture and once that is known, I think you encourage that culture in your team and in your organisation, that will be an organisational culture that is vibrant, full of ideas, always, very quick to respond to shifts. And that is sort of the culture I think a leader needs to create.
Nelis: Thank you. I think that is a good way to end. I wouldn’t know any better final words. So with that I think we can close.
Kate: Thank you both. It’s been fascinating. So many lessons for leaders from any culture. I’ll certainly be going back and listening to this and making notes. It’s been great to have you here, sharing your wisdom, your experience over many years. Thank you both. And as usual to our listeners, if you would like to join in the conversation at all, please head over to leadinginconversation.net and leave your comments and thoughts there.